Gregory Maguire Discussion Board
  Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of theWest
  The Three Women

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   The Three Women
Acey
Member
posted 02-02-2006 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Acey   Click Here to Email Acey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
(Acey's 'Start A Thread Night'... oh yeah.)

And no, this isn't about the three Witches of, Glinda, Elphie and Nessa... although...

This certainly has not been discussed before, it's part of the book that intrigues me most.

The three women, the midwives, present and Elphaba's birth; one's a fishwife, one and old crone, and one a maiden with tender skin and high colour.

Who the devil are they? One of them i have ALWAYS assumed was Yackle, but which one? The fishwife, whose finger was bitten off... but surely a point would be made about Yackle no having a finger, or would that be too obvious of Maguire?

Then there's my other thought. The maiden, the fishwife and the crone equal Glinda, Elphaba and Nessarose... possibly respectively? I'm really not sure.

It's the maiden that interests me most. The fact that she's young and lovely compared to the other two's elderly foulness, and why the decision was made to make her so different as the three old crones would sit so much better, nodding to the Wyrd Sisters in Macbeth... maybe, again, too obvious for Maguire?

Also the fact that there's three of them bugs me.

We all know that nothing is in this novel that isn't there for a plot reason, so who are these women, the three Witches who ruled before Glinda, Elphie and Nessa? Morrible's original three Adepts? Yackle and company? Three random women?

Thoughts?

IP: Logged

Elphaba-Elphie-Fae
Member
posted 02-02-2006 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elphaba-Elphie-Fae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I like the idea of those three being compared to Glinda, Elphaba, and Nessarose. It would tie everything up sort of. Maybe the number three has some speical meaning to Maguire and he just uses it a lot or maybe it has some other meaining...Im going to check and see what it means...

The number Three:
Gods attributes are three - omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.
The three divisions of time - past, present and future.
The three persons in grammar - me, myself and I.
The sum of all human ability is threefold - thought, word and deed.
The three kingdoms of matter - animal, vegetable or mineral.

Number three is the count that everything applies to. Three contains the first, the middle and the last in which displays as a whole, and in Pythagoras’s theory, the three means a completion. Angels and fairies from movies always ask for three wishes, and this composition of triangle in the movie can draw perfect and stable characteristics. It is not a coincident that the number of three male actors and three female actresses in the sitcom <Friends>, and <Three Men and a baby, 1987>, <The Three Musketeers Meet the Man in the Iron Mask, 1998>, <The Witches of Eastwick, 1987>, <The First Wives Club 1996>, <Boys on the Side, 1995> are all same kind. The number two expresses rival, however, the number three shows well balanced in confrontation, excellent relationship between characters, and also growth oriented movie very often. http://www.englishforums.com/English/MeaningOfNumbers/cvbqh/Post.htm


IP: Logged

Alinya
Member
posted 02-02-2006 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alinya   Click Here to Email Alinya     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's also a fairly blatant nod to pagan goddess worship and the Triune godess. The maiden the mother and the crone representing the three stages of life - pre-fertile, fertile; and post fertile. The godess in her three forms is in attendance at the birth of Elphaba, destining her witch-hood, since being a "witch" was mostly associated with the marginalisation of fertility worshipping women by the growing christian church in the 15th and 16th century.

IP: Logged

beth
Member
posted 02-02-2006 06:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for beth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yup, yup, yup, the triune goddess!
*nods head fervently*
just what I was thinkin'

(you'll have to excuse me, I've been watching an awful lot of "The Beverly Hillbillies" lately.)

IP: Logged

booklady
Member
posted 02-02-2006 07:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for booklady     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was also thinking along the lines of the pagan goddesses & the 3 stages of a woman's life. I don't know that the presence of the 3 women dictate that Elphaba must become a witch. Three is an important number in many of the world's religions.

IP: Logged

Saint Aelphaba
Moderator
posted 02-02-2006 08:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Saint Aelphaba     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hm, well I always just thought of them as imprudent, rude, and snooping, midwives who don't give a damn about the baby, but want Melena's things... though the point about Yackle, I believe she was the fishwife, because she couldn't have been an old crone when Elphaba was born, when Elphaba was 23, and when Elphaba was 36....

IP: Logged

ElphabaReborn
Member
posted 02-02-2006 11:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElphabaReborn   Click Here to Email ElphabaReborn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
though the point about Yackle, I believe she was the fishwife, because she couldn't have been an old crone when Elphaba was born, when Elphaba was 23, and when Elphaba was 36....[/B]

Makes sense, but really- does Yackle even heed the laws of phisycs? I'm inclined to believe not.

IP: Logged

beth
Member
posted 02-03-2006 12:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for beth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, i think if Yackle is "the crone", it would be kind of an eternal thing.
But I'm not sold on that idea yet. Maybe she was just one of those woman who seems old already at 30, and just gets more ancient and decrepit as time goes on. Dickens had a lot of them.

IP: Logged

ELPHABA FRIEND
Member
posted 02-03-2006 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ELPHABA FRIEND   Click Here to Email ELPHABA FRIEND     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After those clever posts, it seems there is little left to say on this subject. I agree on all counts. However, I believe Yackle would be the crone, most likely. She appears as a crone throughout both Wicked and SOAW. You never hear of her being young. She obviously isn't human. Peace.

IP: Logged

Alinya
Member
posted 02-03-2006 02:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alinya   Click Here to Email Alinya     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well heres my theories expounded booklady with some digression into history and sociology.

One of the things I see in Wicked is the similarity between Oz and late 15th and early 16th century Europe. You have a rural population where Christianity had only really given a patina to the entrenched fertility based cults which were centred around the reverence of femaleness and the ability of women to bring forth life. (My Wicked paralell the cult of Lurline as the earth mother who gives birth to the world). The pagan inclusion of a christianised version of the mother godess leads in Europe to a very strong veneration of the Virgin Mary. (In Oz we have Aelphaba who while not an immortal like Lurline is still somewhat more than the run of the mill human...just like the virgin Mary). The worship of christ was mostly for the rich. (Oz paralell is the unnamed god who also was mostly for the rich, but had begun to get down to village level in an aggressive manner).

Now in Europe you got a basic conflict between a female-oriented fertility cult populace, being forced to start worshipping an un-named distant masculine god by the elite. What happened in Europe as these two ideologies clashed? Women were marginalised and demonised in order to to remove them from power. Old women who were past childbearing but who had a wealth of knowledge and experience were regarded as wise women in pre-Chrsitianised Europe; they became midwives, herbalists, healers and advisors. As Christianity asserts influence at the village level, the best way to usurp the place of women in the local power structure is to start blaming them for the babies who die under their care, the patients who sicken and die. The Wicca Woman (Wise Woman) becomes...you guessed it "Witch". The Crone, always an aspect of the triune goddess, who acts as midwife to the Mother and escorts one into inevitable death, suddenly becomes evil and is responsible for causing death. The result of this cultural shift was the witch hunts which tore apart villages all voer Europe, and ended in death and torture and isolation for women who were old, and resulted in the exclusion of women from influence and power in such a meaningful way that we still see the marginalisation of women even today (Topic for another discussion that one )

Ok, so along comes Elphaba. Elphaba's birth is attended by a representation of the three aspects of the goddess. A maiden a mother and a crone. We're flagging her as a witch right from the start symbollically. In fact her birth is attended by THE crone - Yackle. Surely an immortal of some sort, and perhaps the anti-Lurline archetype...Crone to Lurline's Mother of the Oziverse, and to the Aelphaba Virgin/Maiden archetype of the Oziverse. In Wicked we see all three faces of the mother goddess, with Yackle being physically present there working the will of the goddess in direct opposition to the masculine god-worshipping powers who run Oz.

At the very end Elphaba herself becomes the archetypal crone..or witch. In her death she is fire below and water above; the direct opposite to Lurline who ate the sun and pissed Oz into being.

Okay one last thing on the nature of witchcraft; the actual definition of a witch is one who is able to cause change in the physical universe by the exercise of their will alone. There are examples that Elphaba may have been able to do this mystically, but in a a very real way she changed Oz by the pure force of her own indomitable will...for good.

Okay that was some random thoughts...feel free to flame throw stones or laugh. It's a theory not a fact; only GM knows what he actually meant!

IP: Logged

lostladyknight
Moderator
posted 02-03-2006 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lostladyknight   Click Here to Email lostladyknight     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[quote]though the point about Yackle, I believe she was the fishwife, because she couldn't have been an old crone when Elphaba was born, when Elphaba was 23, and when Elphaba was 36....[/qoute]

Not, if as my theory is coorect, that she defies the laws of time. Keep in mind, she was there when Elphaba decided to stay in the Emerald city when she was like 19 and was also around to influence Liir some 30 years later. I seriously don't think time affects her in any way. I know I'm being repetitive, but I think she is some sort of omnipotent force that comes from something wholely outside of oz..


[This message has been edited by lostladyknight (edited 02-03-2006).]

IP: Logged

Mistress Hibbins
Member
posted 02-03-2006 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mistress Hibbins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree the idea that the three women present at Elphaba's birth can be seen as representing the three phases of womanhood, or the Triple Goddess. Other "Triple Goddesses" appear in the book: Preenella, Lurline, and Kumbricia; Dorothy, Glinda, and Elphaba.

I have a few things to say about Alinya's description of European history, though:

Europe's cultural shift toward Christianity happened long before the witch-craze swept the continent. Remember that the Roman Empire controlled most of Europe; Christianity was introduced to northern Europe through the cultural exchange with Rome. Christianity became the official religion of the Empire sometime between 380 and 395 C.E., and the Romans introduced the new religion to the people of northern Europe. And before that, the Romans had introduced their decidedly patriarchal pagan religion to the more egalitarian north.

The notion that northern Europe was ever a unified matriarchy, with a single religious system centered on the "Mother Goddess" and the "Horned God" is a fallacy. The people of northern Europe lived in a system of tribes and small, autonomous kingdoms; they were not unified in any sense, and it was that lack of unity that made Roman conquest so easy.

Religious practice varied from region to region, and even from town to town; the ancient Celtic pantheon contains hundreds of deities that are associated with, and were worshipped at, a very particular locale. It is true that the Celts--a people who settled just about all of northern Europe, although many people just associate them with Britain--were very goddess-oriented, but they worshipped a plethora of different goddesses, not just a single, all-encompassing deity. As for the "Horned God," Cerunnos or Herne, all we know about him are his name and image; how he was worshipped and how important he really was remain unknown.

Women had considerably more rights and power among the people of northern Europe than among the Greeks and Romans, but northern European society still was not really matriarchal; it was just more egalitarian.

The shift away from equality toward patriachy is not a phenomoenon that is exclusively associated with Christianity, although Christainaty certainly contributed a great deal to it. Remember that the Greek and Roman Empires, whose cultures were devastatingly sexist, were pagan cultures. In the Greek culture especially, there was an apparent shift away from an earlier, more egalitarian, Nature-centered religious system. Such shifts may have occurred in almost all of the pagan societies of Europe--and possibly throughout the world--and the exact reason, or reasons, for them remain unknown.

It is entirely possible that the view of witches and witchcraft--or divine female power--as malevolent corresponded with the cultural shifts toward patriarchy, but, again, those shifts preceded the advent of Christianity. In patriarchal pagan religions, and even in monotheisms such as Judaism and, later, Christianity, it was perfectly fine for men to practice magic; it was considered an evil act when performed by women.

The northern European fear of witches and witchcraft did not begin with the witch-craze of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. Long, long before that, witchcraft was seen as a potentially harmful force. Pre-Christian folklore abounds with accounts of witchcraft being used for both good and evil purposes. Real witches were viewed as being capable of both benevolence and malice, and the mythic figure of the witch could be either a positive or negative figure. Before that, in ancient Celtic epics, the fearsome "witch-goddesses" were viewed as morally ambiguous figures. They could herald ruin or prosperity, and in either case they were viewed with both fear and respect. The European view of witchcraft has always been complex, and sometimes apparently contradictory.

Folk magic and local "witches" were almost certainly deeply embedded in the culture of the northern Europeans, as is evidenced by the shear number of words synonomous with "witch" in the Saxon (Old English) language. The Church was already expressing its concern over continuing folk practices in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but witchcraft was not considered a serious offense. People did, however, begin to catch on to the fact that the accusation of "witchcraft" was incredibly vague and, on the part of accused, just about impossible to refute. Witchcraft became a capital offense in large part because it was an easy way to get rid of people who were suspicious or troublesome, but who had not committed any other crime. The situation did snowball into the witch-craze of the fifteen and sixteen-hundreds, and the social/political reasons behind the eventual hysteria were complex and are still disputed. However, while the lingering pagan culture may have become one of the targets of the movement, the eradication of some universal "fertility cult" was not the goal of the witch-hunts, by virtue of the fact that such a cult did not exist.

The word "wicca" is the masculine form of the Old English word "wicce," which developed into the Middle English "wicche," and then to the Modern English "witch." It is generally believed that the words are derived from the root "wic" which means "to bend or twist," but the true origin is uncertain. Whatever word might have been used to refer to a "wise woman," it would not have been "wicca" since that is a masculine word. In the context that most people are familiar with, "Wicca" is a modern term for a modern religion.

Let it be understood that I am a Neo-Pagan witch myself. I happen to feel that the Neo-Pagan community would benefit greatly from the realization of what is historical fact and what is just wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong; I believe that the idea of matriarchy and the idea of a single Mother Goddess are powerful ideas, but they are modern ideas. There is no evidence that the society of the northern Europeans was ever matriarchal, and all evidence contradicts the idea that the northern Europeans ever had a single, universal pagan religion.


[This message has been edited by Mistress Hibbins (edited 02-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Mistress Hibbins (edited 02-03-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Mistress Hibbins (edited 02-03-2006).]

IP: Logged

Elphaba-Elphie-Fae
Member
posted 02-03-2006 05:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elphaba-Elphie-Fae     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why does the yackle have to be the old crone why can't the yackle be the younger woman?

IP: Logged

Alinya
Member
posted 02-03-2006 05:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alinya   Click Here to Email Alinya     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mistress Hibbins I'd disagree. Yes Europe was well and truly Chritianised prior to the 15th century. At the village level they paid lip service to Christianity whilst maintaining a life-style more or less unchanged. The local gods of the woods became local "Saints". Everyone was happy.

But it was in the 15th century that the church began to make a concerted effort to have a presence at the village level. Most villages prior to 1400 did not have a local priest. Post 1500 they were everywhere. And church doctrine taught that women were inherently evil, in direct opposition to local customs.

I dont believe I ever claimed a unified matriarchy or a unified religious practise in Europe and if I did I mis-spoke. What you had was customary local practise, mostly based around fertility and the seasons, with a patina of Christianity. But local customs did place women and fertility at the centre of the cycle of death and life. The idea of the godess in all her forms was part of pre-Christian religious practise, and when Christianity came along it felt familiar enough to most of Europe that they could accept it into their everyday lives. You have a god who becomes human and is then sacrificed; the three Marys. It all seemed rather familiar because the same myths existed in their religious practises already. The first christianisation of Europe was rather painless; people went about their daily lives and called the old gods and godesses by the name of "Saint" this or that, and largely ignored christianity.

But in the 15th century, riding a wave of doctrinal orthodoxy which resulted from the schisming of the church in Eastern Europe especially and the rise of a multitudes of "heresies", the church began to take a hard line stance about what was doctrinally acceptable and what was not. In an attempt to stop the church from fragmenting into a series of regional-supported heresies, priests were encouraged to follow a party line in doctrine and to enforce this at the village level. Many priests went to Rome for training and were then sent back to their local village to firmly uphold church doctrine. And this took the form of putting an end to "pagan-tinged" celebrations, encouraging the worship of God the Father and God the Son, downplaying the role of the Virgin, and teaching the concepts of original sin and the inherent evilness of Eve for tempting man into the fall.

It's true accusations of witchery often were used to exclude women from communities prior to the witch crazes of the 15th and 16th century, but in that case its usually an instance of a community using a social stereotype to exlude someone troublesome. And while marginalised, the person labelled a "witch" was seldom killed and was never accused of being in truck with the devil. Thats directly associated with the re-christianisation of Europe.

What happened in the witch crazes is indeed complex; but the imposition of social controls by the church in an already stressed social fabric is considered to be the final straw. Communities in this era were under tremendous stress financially and socially. There were religious schisms in the Catholic church, wars, political unrest, famines and droughts and financial uncertainty. The doctrinal changes introduced into these communities not only put further stress into these communities, it offered them an outlet for this stress. The expulsion of troublesome characters from communities is a great community stress reliever anyway - and the new doctrines being read from every pulpit in the land identified for communities a socially acceptable target. Women. It's fairly widely accepted social history that the re-chrsitianisation of Europe is one of the community stressors that gave rise to the witch hunts. It's by no means the only one, but its the doctrinal concept of women as inherently evil which meant that it was more often than not women who were chosen by communities for villification. Thats what they teach here in New Zealand universities anyway when it comes to the Witch Hunts.

Now as for the figure of the "witch" in pre-Christian mythologies. The mysterious old woman who lives on the margins of society, sometimes casuing good, sometimes causing ill, is a powerful archetype.(Hello Yackle step forward please lol) In the same way
the mysterious wise old man who turns out to be a wizard is just as powerful an archetype. Archetypes as you point out are often neutral; neither good nor bad. But when Europe was re-christianised they chose to use this archetypal figure and make her only evil. The ugly old woman who causes death and sorrow wherever she goes. Deliberately, as a method of social control to put the priest at the centre of the local power structure instead of the local person who knew some herbal lore, gave good advice, and helped deliver the difficult babies that werent coming out right. And all that was necessary was to blame these people when the baby died or people didnt get better; and then offer your own God as an alternative. Basic social control.

I'm a total atheist so I have no axes to grind on either side, since we seem to be declaring our religious sensibilities Nice to have someone to discuss with Mistress Hibbins.

[This message has been edited by Alinya (edited 02-03-2006).]

IP: Logged

Mistress Hibbins
Member
posted 02-03-2006 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mistress Hibbins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alinya, I think that we are completely on the same page; I just totally misunderstood what you were trying to get at before. My apologies.

Parts of the Neo-Pagan community have a bit of a problem with propagating falsehoods about the history of witches, paganism, and the status of women in Europe. We're working on it, but belief in historical fallacy hurts our credibility and makes it difficult for us to be taken seriously; that's why I was so quick to jump on the topic.

IP: Logged

Alinya
Member
posted 02-03-2006 07:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alinya   Click Here to Email Alinya     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thought there might have been a minor misunderstanding

Again nice to meet someone on the boards who likes to discuss. Even with a newbie

IP: Logged

Ozma_the_Wicked
Member
posted 02-04-2006 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ozma_the_Wicked     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I could be reading into this completely incorrectly but are you a Wiccan Mistress Hibbins? I have nothing against Wiccans and I dont want to sound accusitory (Ahhh Spelling!) I was just wondering.
If you are, were you at all disturbed or dismayed to read about the witches in Wicked? Do you think it may spread misinformation about witches and the like?

IP: Logged

Alinya
Member
posted 02-04-2006 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alinya   Click Here to Email Alinya     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yup Mistress Hibbins declared herself a neo-pagan witch I believe Ozma. Neo-paganism and Wicca have so many variants these days you'd have to ask her about the specifics of her craft. One of the few things that seems to unify modern witches is the belief that Witchcraft is just a path to the perfection of the individual witch and is a means to further their connection with the divine, whatever form their worship takes. To be honest this doesnt seem to me, as an outsider to all religions, to be too different to what a lot of christians and muslims and jews will argue. It seems to me that all religions are about finding a deeper personal connection with the divine, in whatever form the divine takes for you.

IP: Logged

Mistress Hibbins
Member
posted 02-05-2006 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mistress Hibbins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, I would say that I am Wiccan, "Ozma_the_Wicked."

And no, I had absolutely no problem with reading "Wicked." The book is pure fantasy; it doesn't "spread misinformation about witches." It would be absurd of me to take offense to a portrayal of fantasy witchcraft. Besides, "Wicked" isn't about witches any more than "Animal Farm" is about animals.

Alinya, I wouldn't say that witchcraft is a "path to perfection." However, you are generally correct in saying that witchcraft, and any other Neo-Pagan practices, serve to make practitioners feel more connected to the "Divine." What the "Divine" is varies from practitioner to practitioner. To me, it is Nature as a whole.

Now, I have to remark that Neo-Paganism is actually very different from organized religions like Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. It isn't exactly true that the purpose of religion is a connection with the Divine; that is the purpose of spirituality. Many religions have--or started out with--a spiritual core, but religion and spirituality are not synonomous.

An organized religion is an institution with a very specific dogma, a code of absolute morality, and/or a rigid hierarchal structure. Such an institution might claim to serve a purely spiritual purpose, but typically its purpose is to twist its followers' sense of spirituality and need for structure to the end of exerting control over their minds and actions.

Neo-Paganism is a movement made up of what one might call "disorganized religions." There are no universal standards, there is no single leader, and, today, there is often no hierarchal structure.

In Wicca, the only universal guideline is the Wiccan Rede, which essentially states that one can do as one pleases, so long one does not cause any harm. Wiccans might practice alone, or in groups. Individual groups might be very structured, or not structured at all. There are no standard rituals or practices; there is no one deity or pantheon that one must worship. There is no standard belief in the afterlife, there is no creation myth, there is no fear of damnation or need for salvation.

The extreme diversity of the Neo-Pagan movement makes it difficult for us to define ourselves for non-Pagans, but it also makes for a very rich, dynamic community. Within the movement, there are as many different means of religious and/or spiritual practice as there are practitioners.

IP: Logged

Elphiefan01
Member
posted 02-05-2006 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elphiefan01   Click Here to Email Elphiefan01     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mistress Hibbins:
[B] Besides, "Wicked" isn't about witches any more than "Animal Farm" is about animals.

Wow, that is a really great analogy! That's a really clever statement, (i'm reading Animal Farm right now so it is becoming like dictaorship and stuff.) *If that made any sense at all...* Also you know the 2 books could be compared rather easily:

1. Wizard-Napolean (dictators)
2. The people of Oz love him at first-Same with the animals. (I was acually expecting "animals" to be "Animals" in the book becaus eof Wicked)

IP: Logged

Alinya
Member
posted 02-05-2006 05:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Alinya   Click Here to Email Alinya     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I like the distinction you make between spirituality and religion, but most of the believers I have met dont make any such distinction. I'm friends with muslims, buddhists, pagans, christians of a few stripes, and atheists, and all of them (except we atheists of course!) seem to think of their religion as a form for their spirituality.

While I'm sure many people take up religious practises because its cultural, I'm lucky enough to know a number of people who do see their religion as a vehicle to help them achieve a closer relationship with their god. And while one or two of them despair of me ever being bought to believe in something their real focus is on their own personal journey.

Where dogma and tyrannical doctrine interfere with spirituality, then spirituality and religion diverge, but that tends to be on the extremes of religious practise. Most of the worlds muslims are not slavering jihad-crazed bombers. Most christians are not gay-hating racist separationists planning for an appocalypse thats due to arrive any day.

For a lot of people their religion is a part of their everyday life, something that gives them comfort and strength in times of adversity, and a set of rules to help them live a better life. Because thats what religions started as; a way for societies to codify rules of behaviour in order to live together with a semblance of normality.

We so often see the extremes of religious behaviour that we begin to think all people who practise that religion act in that way. The reality, at least from my observations, seem to be that most religions really just want to help people live a better life by giving them some structure. Just some thoughts from a very little country on the edge of the world.

[This message has been edited by Alinya (edited 02-05-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Alinya (edited 02-05-2006).]

IP: Logged

dancing through life
Junior Member
posted 02-19-2006 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dancing through life   Click Here to Email dancing through life     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
posted 02-02-2006 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for booklady Click Here to Email booklady Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote I was also thinking along the lines of the pagan goddesses & the 3 stages of a woman's life. I don't know that the presence of the 3 women dictate that Elphaba must become a witch. Three is an important number in many of the world's religions.

Also, the number three was used in greek mythology. Three brothers:Zeus, Hades, Poisedon Three sisters: Hera, Dimetrus(i think) Hestia.

Maybe something to do with those three sisters? Hera is the more beautiful of the three and younger, Dimestrus is homely and older, and Hestia is guider of housewives

IP: Logged

Yero my hero
Member
posted 02-19-2006 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yero my hero   Click Here to Email Yero my hero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Greek mythology makes sense to me, almost. The way the three housewives are there, it could almost be seen logical that they were sisters, though of course they are not. Then of course Elphaba and Nessarose are sisters, and Glinda may as well have been a sister to Elphie, she was closer to her than Nessa. So, the Greek three makes sense to me for the Witches but not necessarily the baby-deliverers, so to speak.

IP: Logged

Elphaba's_Other_Lover
Member
posted 02-24-2006 09:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Elphaba's_Other_Lover   Click Here to Email Elphaba's_Other_Lover     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Acey:
[B](Acey's 'Start A Thread Night'... oh yeah.)

[Then there's my other thought. The maiden, the fishwife and the crone equal Glinda, Elphaba and Nessarose... possibly respectively? I'm really not sure.]

I think that you are on to some thing what if the three women are a premonition(mispelled) to Glinda Elphaba and Nessarose. I meant he fish wife to Nessa what with her missing part of a limb, The old crone to Glinda 'cause she lives to be the pldest of the three, and the other to Elphaba. That is what I have thought about it.

[This message has been edited by Elphaba's_Other_Lover (edited 02-24-2006).]

IP: Logged

Mistress Hibbins
Member
posted 02-24-2006 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mistress Hibbins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The six Olympians who are siblings are Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Hera, Demeter, and Hestia.

Zeus and Hera are the king and queen of Heaven, Hades rules the underworld, and Poseidon rules the sea and causes earthquakes. Demeter is the goddess of farming, crops, and the harvest, and Hestia is the goddess of the hearth and the home.

Yes, the number three is extremely prevalent in Greek mythology; it absolutely abounds with triple-deities.

Personally, I think the Ozian deities Lurline, Preenella, and Kumbricia form a Triple-Goddess. The three women present at Elphaba's birth seem to represent the Triple-Goddess, or the three stages of womanhood, and I personally think that Dorothy, Glinda, and Elphaba form a kind of Triple-Goddess.

IP: Logged

Yero my hero
Member
posted 02-24-2006 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Yero my hero   Click Here to Email Yero my hero     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mistress Hibbins:
[B]
Zeus and Hera are the king and queen of Heaven, Hades rules the underworld, and Poseidon rules the sea and causes earthquakes. Demeter is the goddess of farming, crops, and the harvest, and Hestia is the goddess of the hearth and the home.
B]

Demeter, goddess of farming, like Nessa being the ruler of Munchkinland, what with the farming and all. I suppose Glinda could almost be Hera, what with her ruling Oz later and everything, but I don't know where that leaves Elphaba- hearth and home? Not exactly the "homely" type...

IP: Logged

Mistress Hibbins
Member
posted 02-25-2006 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mistress Hibbins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think the characters have anything to do with the Olympians; I was just clarifying information that someone else had tried to convey.

IP: Logged

Kumbricia
Junior Member
posted 09-03-2008 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kumbricia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The triple-goddess allusion that I noted first was Dorothy, Kumbricia (the Kumbric Witch), and Yackle.

**For reference: Maiden is before sex (before a girl's period or the ability to concieve life), Mother is during sex (fertile years), Crone is after sex (after meonpause)** (Please no one bash me for saying meonpause is 'after sex', we're just taling about traditional archetypes here, not anyone's personal sex life.)

Dorothy, obviously the maiden, is alluded to in the painting of the Kumbric Witch that Boq found in the library. The Kumbric Witch in the picture is wearing a "hazy dawn blue" dress and shiny "coin-of-the-realm" shoes with the "heels clicked together". She's holding a drowned looking beast. (pgs 124-125) From this image we also get the mother symbolism of the Kumbric witch, she is about to suckle the beast. She is the mother of Animals. In other parts of the book the Kumbric Witch is portrayed in a very sexual way. Thought modern convention separates motherhood from sexuality, pagan cultures recognized the inherent sexuality in motherhood. (If you think sex has nothing to do with motherhood, then you need a biology lesson. lol.) So the Kumbric Witch is revealed as the sexual side of the Mother aspect as well as the caregiving side. Yackle is the crone for many obvious reasons (far too many to quote), but the reason I connect her with the Kumbric Witch on an instintual level is that she has the same mysterious qualities.

------------------
"Born in the morning, Woe without warning"

IP: Logged

valenticed
Member
posted 09-03-2008 03:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for valenticed   Click Here to Email valenticed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kumbricia:
The triple-goddess allusion that I noted first was Dorothy, Kumbricia (the Kumbric Witch), and Yackle.

**For reference: Maiden is before sex (before a girl's period or the ability to concieve life), Mother is during sex (fertile years), Crone is after sex (after meonpause)** (Please no one bash me for saying meonpause is 'after sex', we're just taling about traditional archetypes here, not anyone's personal sex life.)

Dorothy, obviously the maiden, is alluded to in the painting of the Kumbric Witch that Boq found in the library. The Kumbric Witch in the picture is wearing a "hazy dawn blue" dress and shiny "coin-of-the-realm" shoes with the "heels clicked together". She's holding a drowned looking beast. (pgs 124-125) From this image we also get the mother symbolism of the Kumbric witch, she is about to suckle the beast. She is the mother of Animals. In other parts of the book the Kumbric Witch is portrayed in a very sexual way. Thought modern convention separates motherhood from sexuality, pagan cultures recognized the inherent sexuality in motherhood. (If you think sex has nothing to do with motherhood, then you need a biology lesson. lol.) So the Kumbric Witch is revealed as the sexual side of the Mother aspect as well as the caregiving side. Yackle is the crone for many obvious reasons (far too many to quote), but the reason I connect her with the Kumbric Witch on an instintual level is that she has the same mysterious qualities.



well, you've convinced me that the fishwife is the Kumbric Witch. i'm not sure about Dorothy though...sorry if this was a useless post. :/

------------------

IP: Logged

Kumbricia
Junior Member
posted 09-03-2008 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kumbricia     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That is actually interesting to compare the fishwife to the Kumbric Witch. When i wrote the post, I was only thinking of the archetype of the Triple Goddess, but it is quite interesting to just compare the fishwife and the Kumbric Witch. (Not a useless post at all!)

Here's what I think:
We see in the painting of the Kumbric Witch and hear in the Animal creation stories that the Kumbric Witch gives Animals "Spirit" by suckling them at her breast - mother's milk. The fishwife "gave [Elphaba] a finger to nurse on" (pg 20) which Elphaba bit off. The crone makes a point of saying, "Though what a child, that sips blood even before its first suck of mother's milk!" (pg 21) If the Kumbric Witch and the fishwife are one and the same (at least symoblically) and the Kumbric Witch gave Animals "Spirit" through her milk, then what did she give Elphaba through her blood? The opposite, as Elphie later claims, that she has no soul? The same? Something different, or maybe something more? The fact that Elphie tasted blood before mother's milk always seemed very important to me, though I couldn't figure out why. Maybe this is the significance. Opinions?

Also, on a slight tangent, I think that GM makes it beyond obvious that the three attendants at Elphaba's birth are representitive of the triple goddess: the maiden, mother, and crone. The Maiden and the Crone are actually called just that. The Fishwife, well, wife = mother (not that all wives are mothers, but the terms are representative of the same stage of the triple goddess).

------------------
"Born in the morning, Woe without warning"

[This message has been edited by Kumbricia (edited 09-03-2008).]

IP: Logged

valenticed
Member
posted 09-03-2008 01:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for valenticed   Click Here to Email valenticed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kumbricia:
That is actually interesting to compare the fishwife to the Kumbric Witch. When i wrote the post, I was only thinking of the archetype of the Triple Goddess, but it is quite interesting to just compare the fishwife and the Kumbric Witch. (Not a useless post at all!)

Here's what I think:
We see in the painting of the Kumbric Witch and hear in the Animal creation stories that the Kumbric Witch gives Animals "Spirit" by suckling them at her breast - mother's milk. The fishwife "gave [Elphaba] a finger to nurse on" (pg 20) which Elphaba bit off. The crone makes a point of saying, "Though what a child, that sips blood even before its first suck of mother's milk!" (pg 21) If the Kumbric Witch and the fishwife are one and the same (at least symoblically) and the Kumbric Witch gave Animals "Spirit" through her milk, then what did she give Elphaba through her blood? The opposite, as Elphie later claims, that she has no soul? The same? Something different, or maybe something more? The fact that Elphie tasted blood before mother's milk always seemed very important to me, though I couldn't figure out why. Maybe this is the significance. Opinions?



wow, absolutely, yes. that's amazing, i never would have thought of that. kudos!

------------------

IP: Logged

valenticed
Member
posted 09-10-2008 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for valenticed   Click Here to Email valenticed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i wanted to add something to support Kimbricia's theory. there are 2 main characters in the book that demonstrate the sexual nature of motherhood: Melena and Nanny. They both have very strong motherly roles in the book, and both of them are very sexual. Melena, as the mother of Elphaba and for her general whoring about, shows both of these qualities. Nanny's primary role in the book was raising both Melena and Elphaba, but some of her thoughts and actions are quite sexual. For example, her contemplation about the garter in the beginning of the book. The Amas are also very motherly figures that displayed sexuality, when they took a trip to a Pleasure Faith show.
i really love this theory, hope i could contribute to it

------------------

IP: Logged

ElphieThropp
Junior Member
posted 10-13-2008 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ElphieThropp   Click Here to Email ElphieThropp     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It maybe a reference to the weird siters in Macbeth. They choose Macbeth out of everyone in the world, it's like Elphie was chosen. Chosen to be powerful, chosen to be green and even chosen to be The Wicked witch Of The West but then again just a theory. Any similiar thoughts?

IP: Logged

alexo
Member
posted 01-08-2014 09:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alexo   Click Here to Email alexo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1) Limousines

What's a marriage without a limousine? A limousine will be standard now for up to all weddings, and is a powerful way to show up in style for your own personel wedding. This is also a powerful way to plan out the travel arrangements for your participants in the wedding ceremony party. You need to determine if you need several limousine based upon how big your wedding get together.

best wedding


2) Renting out a more exotic facility

You can rent out spectacular locations to host your wedding. You might rent out the mansion, a backyard, a beach, or perhaps a castle (depending with your location) to host your wedding. You won't have to limit yourself to the traditional ballroom or maybe church. Why not start being active . pizzazz to ones wedding by including a beautiful wedding location? You might even take it further by renting out the exact location where you met your soon for being spouse. This is a powerful way to remember your wedding.


awrin

3) The marriage arch

Too squeeze in a creative touch to your altar area, you can rent out a marriage arch. This gives a good "instant feel" of your traditional wedding regardless of where the wedding will be held - regardless of whether it's outside. You'll have it decorated together with flowers, balloons and other decorations that match large and theme of this wedding. Wedding arches can be found in all type involving sizes, so you could have room to select.

band for women

4) Custom Tents

You won't have to have the regular "box tent" for your wedding. You can have a very dome-style tent to hold on to your reception get together and hold your guests. Dome tents are beautiful and have a bunch of extra accessories like lighting, music, and in some cases projection screens. This can be the perfect replacement if thinking of a wedding that may be truly "out of the box". Use the ideas in this article to save big with your wedding and to offer the beautiful wedding you've always wanted. It's not too late to get started on renting, so include this idea with your plans to start saving money on your marriage today.

[This message has been edited by alexo (edited 01-21-2014).]

[This message has been edited by alexo (edited 03-20-2014).]

IP: Logged

ilyassking
Member
posted 01-08-2014 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ilyassking   Click Here to Email ilyassking     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think you for this post
-----------------------------
قالب المساعد العربي 6

------------------
اعدادات سيو

IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | gregorymaguire.com


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46